Trigger is lighter than the Glock, it took years of aggressive training to reach the point of acceptable discharges with the Glock. Its pathetic how often these legal stunts work. Using an example from the first prong, we legitimately fault the user who shot himself in the palm, rightfully asking why in the WORLD his palm was in front of the muzzle when he set the gun down. Once investigated a shot fired into a roll top desk. 3. Note the addition of ominous background music in the second seven-minutes-longer version (there was no music in the Good Morning America version). With Biden spending outrageous amounts of money, whats 100 million here or there? Posts: 21156 | Registered: November 05, 2003. It has an unsafe takedown procedure that requires you to pull the trigger to get the slide off. The pistol is popular with commercial gun owners and law enforcement south of the border. But were way past the days of major league, internationally known gunmakers turning out complete crap, selling it and the public living with it. Guess it hasnt dawned on them that: 1. BTW it was HK that made the first polymer gun, Glock actually stole the idea for the G17 from them. Holding the striker fully cocked with nothing to block it if the sear fails is questionable at best. To make the striker leg pull off of the sear, you would have to impart a lot of rearward momentum and stop it suddenly. Especially since they farm it out to the lowest bidder. With the 320, the striker is in full-cock position, and held there through the operation of the trigger sear and the positive striker-blocking safety. Canadas highly-trained counterterrorism force, JTF-2, is the only military unit with the SIG P320 in its inventory right now. For instance theres Lieutenant Thomas Ahern who was was performing a routine function (test) of his P320 when it fired at him without any force towards the trigger, resulting in the bullet impacting his left thigh.. Great job, this threat needed some levity! So your fanboy perjorative falls not only flat but false. Each incident gives them more blood for their macabre dance, and another tic-mark for their context-free gun violence tally. The one officer in the ABC story had it wrapped in a rag in his gym bag? The more someone touches, loads, clears, cleans, holsters, un-holsters, or otherwise deals with their firearm, the higher the statistical likelihood that complacence kicks in. This is the goal of those who would disarm us at the Post Office, as we take little Yevgeniy or little Shaquina to school, as we fulfill our civic responsibilities as jurors to judge our peers, as we travel to and through less free jurisdictions. It alleges that Walter Collette, Jr., a police officer with the Somerville (Mass.) Someone is going to read this thread and be bewildered. My bet would be that someone had a fully loaded gun in a gym bag and a cloth or rag snagged the trigger. If the gangster greed monger criminal Capitalvanians in the gun industry had their products under the jurisdiction of the consumer safety administration all the newer striker fired guns would never have been allowed on the market unless they had manual safeties and a safe take down system. Cops are crap with guns, unlike me, a REAL pistolero! The new guy sucks. There used to be a problem, which is why Sig fixed it. I would rather play handball with the Devil himself because if you deal with the Devil he will tell you that you agreed to lose your soul for a big box full of millions in cash. I lost $150 dumping that gun and Sig instead of acknowledging that it had a problem and calling it a recall, denied all and everything and called it a voluntary upgrade., At my LGS a P320 just went off when one of the guys put it the counter when he set up a target. They have hundreds of thousands of P320s in regular service now and, despite a search, we couldnt find a rash of reports of soldiers claiming their pistols are firing on their own. Because its flat out bull**it. A fellow kept his DA revolver in the desk. In June, Cambridge police Lt. Thomas Ahern filed suit, accusing Sig Sauer of selling a dangerously defective product after his P320 fired on its own while he was in the department's SWAT team van with six other officers. Here is a movie that he filmed 40 years ago and he was still raking it in. Got a 40 SW P320 SC on my hip now, got one in 9mm within reach, so far neither has decided to trip the sear without my help. Too expensive to use their customers as beta testers. Hilton's $15 million lawsuit said, "there have been 54 reported uncommanded discharges of the P320," meaning the gun went off by itself, over the last five years in 22 states and Washington, D.C. Sig Sauer did not respond to ABC News' request for comment. Theyre just on a 30 year nap hoping what they did will carry them forever. The military is already shopping for a new sidearm. Ever since the internet went mainstream I have read about the Sigs decline. Fine. The design was incorporated from Bruce Grays trigger kit around the time of the original drop safety fix. In 2020, the agent, who is a former marine, was doing his routine training with the P320. First, clearing a loaded firearm with a finger over the muzzle doesnt exhibit even cursory adherence to the Four Rules. JTF-2 is the only unit in. Im a Kirk guy, a Shatner Kirk guy. While this incident occurred months ago, this erroneous media report is driven by multiple sources, including our competitors, and coincides with the imminent release of other Canadian military and law enforcement tenders, indicating the timing of its release is an attempt to improperly influence the procurements, the statement said. Quit blaming cops or the military, these guns have a serious problem. Were not the only ones who have noticed the lawsuits. Sounds like these officers and others are attempting to cover their posteriors. That a pistol will be carried in a way it shouldnt (say, in a gym bag or a purse). They habitually use their customers as the product testers by selling what are essentially prototypes while quietly implementing rolling revisions. I agree that Glock is sitting on their laurels and has been for decades. In a world of "innovative" guns, this truly is an innovated design and a step in the right direction for the future of pistols. So park the Cops suck cause they aint gunfighters! bull**it. Zero in the affirmative. While good firearms training and practices among law enforcement officers is certainly the case much of the time, weve seen far too many instances over the years of un-safe or downright dangerous practices by allegedly highly trained individuals to apply that kind of blanket endorsement to all cops or alphabet agency employees. He likens it to a bow-and-arrow, pulled taut. 35446 Views 56 Replies 41 Participants Last post by tirod, Sep 1, 2021. Finger on the trigger and muzzle discipline are sometimes unheralded. Police officers (maybe) do an annual qualification and thats it. And it doesnt take too much Googling to find plenty of reports of LEOs suing the Georgia company as well (see here, here, here, and here for just a few). What a wonderful parody of a MAC cultist! Is it? I know there are those who will vehemently disagree with me, and even disparage me but I have been following this issue from early on, BUT I recall CLEARLY that there have been dozens and dozens of discharges that could not be attributed to operator error and people experiencing these uncommanded discharges both before AND after getting the trigger upgrade. Anyway around here they do. in Capitalvania. Weird how that might happen. Funny how that works. But I hope Sig fights it until the bitterest of ends. The use of a modified [SIG] P226 holster created an unsafe condition by allowing a foreign object to enter the holster, causing the unintended discharge.. I dunno if its a case of lowest bidders blues or what. At rest, cocked, it may very well have enough oomph to set some primers off. Bagnell also represented Virginia Sheriffs Deputy Marcie Vadnais who sued SIG when she said her P320 went off on its own when she was removing the weapon from her belt. Vadnais was featured in the Nightline version of ABCs report. She didnt sue, but swore she would never own another Volvo again. Kyle . Before the madness SIGS were expensive. Golly didnt Sig catch he!! So does any of this mean theres something wrong with the P320? In 2020, the agent, who is a former marine, was doing his routine training with the P320. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jsu6WsSQ2_g. To me it was unreal, $600 to ask a question about WOK and a picture. Combine this with the complacency that comes with handling a firearm over-and-over again as you holster and unholster a firearm throughout the day, its not surprising that many of these officers are saying it just went off as a negligent discharge can cost them their job if it lead to serious injury or property damage. The P320 should be scrapped and SIG Sauer USA should redesign a new pistol around the striker firing mechanism instead of just retrofitting a hammer fired pistol (P250). Everyone knows Glocks are the absolute pinnacle of perfection and have never had one single defect ever! Glock is being sued too, because once loaded and a round is chambered, it also has a much lighter trigger than a DA/SA. I am also very much a DS9 fan, best series overall. It takes time for any new platform to work the kinks out. They didnt see a problem at all and in fact, saw it as an upgrade over Glock. 1) The p320 doesnt hold the striker fully to the rear. Profits over reliability and you end up with junk. Seems kind of like a Sig apologist article. I continue to bet my life on them. I can say we are aware of the statement released by SIG SAUER, said Maj. Amber Bineau. There are several stories about her in the news for various no reasons, she must be throwing them out by a dozen. Ron, That a shirt tail or jacket cinch cord slips into a holster. Just because someone shoots hyper-unrealistic 3 gun competition, subscribes to Recoil magazine and routinely watches their fave rave YouTube cult of personality channel shill for the latest company that paid him off doesnt make them a [emailprotected]$$. One hell of a conspiracy. hate to tell you this but most lawnmowers with the handle bar stop get tied down. . He was told to shoot two rounds. https://apis.mail.yahoo.com/ws/v3/mailboxes/@.id==VjN-iN4Wr8P_P2lGU6m2M5Rd8F6tVxyeeWdzleA_0eUoKjB0wER5wbVU_ouLj3uKCvLmUWhjIv2uHVC2R0Wv8Q9VgQ/messages/@.id==AMxkWSMoHX4bYSzMKA0AINojDH4/content/parts/@.id==2/refresh?appid=YMailNorrinLaunch&ymreqid=ae6c4f7d-acdd-ffa3-1c80-d70000011c00. Which in and of itself is user error / misuse. Everyone remembers the problems the Beretta M9 had, but it got sorted and they went on to serve over 30 years. Or you would have to have enough slide play for the slide movement to physically disengage the sear and striker leg mating surfaces. A holstered base P320 allegedly had a mysterious accidental discharge without pulling the trigger. These lawsuits ARE about SIG making defective weapons. Stupid marine, cop, citizen, its their fault. The more someone touches, loads, clears, cleans, holsters, un-holsters, or otherwise deals with their firearm, the higher the statistical likelihood that complacence kicks in. People of the Gun are probably familiar with the early problems the P320 had regarding drop safety. But that's not working in the P320, he said. That being the case, the 320 is a cocked and locked striker-fired gun; However, it only has two safeties, unlike, say, a 1911, which has four: An inertial firing pin, a positive firing-pin locking safety, a manual sear-locking/blocking safety, and a trigger-bar-blocking grip safety. This leads me to conclude that the problem is not the gear but the moron using it. This gun had been voluntary upgraded. That is exactly why all civilized countries have Government Agencies that monitor companies that have a callus disregard for human life and are only interested in the quick buck. 01:10. Canadian Special Forces Command has not said what caused the gun to go off unexpectedly, but the company said a conclusion has been reached. Give me a break. They mandate more discharges, with more property damage, more injuries, and more deaths. Personally they should have gone with the Glock, its not for me but is a proven gun. I call b-s on all these my gun magically went off. That said, I own multiple P320s, but all of them have the manual safety due to personal preference. Then theres the fact that the branches of the military have put the P320 design through their own batteries of testing and found it duty worthy. SIG says ABC had intended to include some of those other claims in their reports, but after SIG informed the network of the additional information that was uncovered, those cases werent included in either of the segments. I agree. SIG Sauer, a German weapons maker with its U.S. headquarters in Newington, N.H., issued a statement Friday in response to a CBC News report earlier this week that revealed the Nov. 5, 2020, incident and the fact the weapon, the SIG P320, had been withdrawn from service while the military conducts an investigation. My dad owned one and that is exactly what happened one time when he was using it. I think in the end even if there is no mechanical defect (dont hold your breath) it will be found that the Sig is causing accidental discharges for the same reason the Glock does, because if you snag the trigger on the Sig model that does not have a manual safety (some do) the gun will accidentally fire. The heads up testing was immediately finished the Sig was the winner. The HK VP70 was made in 1970 when Gaston Glock was making curtain rods. The trigger bar has to push up on it, for it to release. So I give a ton of credit to Shatner for reading the reality of what it was and in essence, saving it. SIG is choosing to litigate their problems away. Being prosecuted and convicted of a third degree felony in Texas can lead to: Incarceration in a Texas state prison for a term of two years or up to 10 years. The problem is non-existent. SIG ultimately settled that lawsuit. Upgrades are for things that didnt work right in the first place. Sounds like most of these cases were off-body carry. You did get to sit and watch it with him, which leads to a serious question. Where is this lightning striking twice? It isnt the beginner woodworker who loses fingers. Im more of a DS9 guy. I wont argue theyre wrong, I dont own one, dont want to. They simply have never been seen in the upper echelon of handgun makers, their entire business model is to offer cheaper guns at cheaper prices. The fact that Shatner was doing Wrath of Kahn meet and greets at 90 years old kind of soured me. Over the top, hammy and with incredible choleric energy, but as he once said, when you trying to seriously sell a scene that has space ship with obvious carboard walls, christmas lights and a guy in a rubber gorilla suit with a plastic horn on its head, if you play it lowkey youre dead the audience is gonna focus on how cheesy it all is. He takes your wallet and car and leaves the SIG. So I think it is unconscionable, given the number of incidents of this gun defectively discharging without a trigger pull, would necessitate that someone order it to be recalled and only SIG can do that.. But just the same- a gun going off from momentum? I dont know nothing about Sigs, I do know any gunm that goes off when I lay it on a table gets sold with a warning and I never touch that brand or model again. The Moron engineer who decided to put that on the Glock should have been hung by his dirty balls. To put it simply, they are expensive cheaply made junk. ABC ran their story on the P320 twice, but with some significant differences between the two reports. It upgraded its P320 pistols in October 2018, before the middle school incident, spokeswoman Amanda. 3 disaster is true and if it is Sig will go all out to cover it up if it was. Bagnell said he thinks the discharges are due to both design and manufacturing flaws on SIGs part. Additional questions about the Voluntary Upgrade Program are answered in the FAQ. There are a few examples, I admitS&Ws M&P from around 2014 were near junk and I wouldnt have bothered to own one as a trotline weight, but apparently S&W had righted that ship since then. The SIG P320 has been the subject of numerous lawsuits, including one class action case, in the U.S. over injuries sustained because of accidental discharges. It nicely describes what has to happen in a striker-fired P320 for an un-commanded discharge to happen as the plaintiffs have claimed. Whether or not the suits have merit. At the risk of sounding superstitious lets review Sigs latest turd pistol. Its difficult to believe thats a coincidence. Third, Glock has had problems, too. The incident with the P320 - a contender for a major Canadian Armed Forces procurement of thousands of pistols and holsters that has a Aug. 3 deadline for industry proposals - occurred at JTF-2's Dwyer Hill training range just west of Ottawa. Its not happening on your person without some catastrophic event. My trust for Sig stopped after they produced the beloved Sig556xi Russian. TidalWave Professional Aug 25, 2021 #17 Bassbob said: Somehow I seriously doubt the guns just shot themselves. to docile, too subtle, to contextual. But Im observant enough to see the same voices that said in 1985 that This new fangled Glock is a just a plastic toy! The modular SIG P320 is among the most widely-owned handguns on the planet. Anyway there was one good thing to come from those movies, The USS Vengeance. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. Canadian soldier. So the tally goes against the surrounding area, not against the gun free zone. He was told to shoot two rounds. This guy had been working at the LGS for over a decade and never had an AD or ND, he was the strictest when it came to safety. If the latter were to occur, the drop safety would prevent discharge because it would not be pushed up by anything. Second, every gun maker has made lemons in the past. Aint been nothing but problems since the military dropped the 1911, what was it 85 year of trusted service? Trust a P365 with your life. The weapon had a history of going off unexpectedly when it was dropped at a certain angle. Sig Sauer's headquarters are located in New Hampshire at Pease International Tradeport. I dont own a P320. There was no holster involved. If you did the same with a Glock or an M&P without the thumb safeties, youd get the same result. Good job! And as far as Special Forces go, SF going to Glock has been documented as a bean counters solution to save money. Depending on who you talk to you will get many different answers. . If it were a lowered tier manufacturer like a Taurus having allegations made against them, people would run with it without thinking twice. A plastic gun that has a tendency to go off by itself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-ZZ6pynGLM On Thursday, M.D. But this time, the sound bites used were different. But Shatner? He said there has to be something wrong with the gun if this is happening to individuals with this amount of training, this amount of skill.. No picture for me. Look a fanboy. . The military is much smarter and no, the gun is not junk. I carry one in my front pocket routinely. Its hard to say yet but with anything follow the basic safety rules. Its also interesting that theres apparently no corresponding flood of civilian lawsuits against SIG with similar claims of guns going off, even though the public owns far more P320s than do law enforcement agencies. Fair enough. . Have heard of no issues like the alleged gremlin caused spontaneous discharges of the P320 in other Sig models. It doesnt matter whether SIG is at fault or not. If they recruit smart cops, they wont have cops who will act against their political opponents outside of the constitution. saw the video, doesnt explain how it bypasses striker pin safety. Watching all these Glock fan boys drool over these lawsuits in their tribal brand-lust is like watching the talking heads on CNN announcing Trump lost the 2020 election. The Hide Armory. Yes, a lot of police officers only shoot when they have to for qual. The best take on this subject is by the author himself: this is about slime lawyers looking to build a national narrative and get a few wins in, so they can more easily get the next win and the next one, the next one and so on. The main difference is that the M&P never had the problem the p320 did with trigger mass. The Defiant regardless of who is the captain. The sear cams it back a teeny bit. Wheee!!. Yes, but that did not mean the machine would be able to go on being marketed like that. He would have been booted after the first time, but being a cop comes with some special privileges. (It wasnt my gun). Happy with my old S&W revolvers, 3rd Gen S&W pistols,1911s and a slew of P226s. LEO handguns get into struggles, they get laid and rolled on, they get smacked into vehicles/doorways, they get dropped, they get drawn and holstered way more often than their civilian counterparts. Carrying a handgun in a purse, particularly one that isnt designed specifically to carry a firearm, is problematic at best. In the case of the 320, lightning is striking the same place an awful lot. Thats SIGs term for a recall. Let us look at the history of other consumer products. Attorney Bagnell held up the law enforcement officers he represents as examples of people who are highly trained in carrying and using firearms. Sig P320 discharge while holstered. The second version emphasized the upgrade to fix the drop safety issue and notes that Harrison believes that problem has been fixed. ! while being accompanied by some form of obvious stupidity like putting an unholstered gun in a gym bag with other stuff. The Collette suit, for example, lists 39 such discharges, all but five of which involved law enforcement officers. By hoping Sig gets taken down for the P320, theyre actually setting up their own pet brand to be the next on the chopping block. ), and the gun fell out of his pocket. A lot like carrying a cocked and locked 1911 but with the safety off. Sig Sauer P320 (Christine Peterson/TNS) February 22, 2021 Ryan Morgan Gunmaker Sig Sauer is facing a new lawsuit from a U.S. federal agent who claims his holstered P320 pistol discharged without him pulling the trigger and struck him in his upper right hip.